Always lay out the surround speakers with respect to the MLP! In-Ceiling the speakers are flat, but have 110 degree dispersion. Required coverage / dispersion, speakers aimed at point between two seating rows. Question: Would I be better off with a typical center channel speaker, or with a floorstanding speaker identical to my L and R speakers that I lay horizontally, i.e., L and R speaker vertical, and center horizontal? a 4″ driver vs. a 6.5″). Very informative article, this given me some lights on setting up 2 row seating. Dolby's Atmos installation guide says that if your ceiling speakers have a wide dispersion angle of 45 degrees from 100Hz to 10KHz, you can mount them pointing straight down. The receiver will support front wide, but that is for another day. Clearly not if you are using B&W LCR and Bose elsewhere… Ceiling speakers are made with fairly wide dispersion characteristics in mind. Is someone was to use an overhead speaker in a “traditional” bookshelf configuration (1 tweeter over 1 woofer), how should that be angled? I noticed that the atmos back pair of speakers were situated between the first and second rows and were toed in towards the second row. I am getting a polk audio RTi setup and was gonna do A1s for the FH (gotta be on the wall cause that side of the ceiling is 25 feet up) and TM position (above couch at 15 feet). The in ceiling speakers should be timbre matched to your mains. your wealth of knowledge is quite remarkable and appreciate your willingness to share with all of us, thank you! Minimum recommended separation between the surrounds and Atmos speakers is 30 degrees. Speakers firing straight down vs. angled at the listening area. Any ideas? For example if a speaker only covers out to 30 degrees off axis then someone at 60 degrees off axis will hear something very different from someone on axis. Of course that requires some “design and engineering”! The center is a Polk CS1000p. Would the definitive technology uiw rss II be a good speaker. the surrounds are KS-14’s. Thanks! Or would it be better to mount the atmos speakers on the side walls more middle space between mlp and front and again between rear ear level staged speakers angled towards mlp . Of course we have tried to keep things simple in this article but there is more complexity to consider with a Dolby Atmos speaker layout: var dd_offset_from_content = -850;var dd_top_offset_from_content = -25;var dd_override_start_anchor_id = "";var dd_override_top_offset = ""; Excellent article Nyal. Angling speakers significantly reduces the coverage requirements. It looks funky until you think about the engineering reasons why it is done. I can’t answer for sure, and only refer you to what’s discussed in the article…check your angles relative to each seat, check your speaker off axis dispersion patterns (measure them if necessary) and base the speaker positions on that…aiming to get all seats in a part of the speaker’s dispersion that will hit -3dB @ 4kHz. Süderstraße 282. The really important thing is to maintain proper spacing and angling of the ceiling speakers from the LCRs and rear surrounds. Of course you can reuse your Polk speakers, but I’m not familiar with the specifics of the dispersion on the surrounds you have. I’m hearing some pretty full range effects sent to the Atmos speakers, and I can only imagine sound mixers will continue to use them more aggressively as time goes on. So two questions: 1) What in-ceiling speakers can be aimed at the listening area? 9′ ceiling height. Installation Speaker. I have been wondering about this for a while since every other diagram is for 1 row of seats only. The main reason is that Dipoles are very poor at surround localization, they are intended more to provide spaciousness and avoid localization. www.toa.eu What would be my timbre matching options for in ceiling ? So my biggest dilemmas are the rear surrounds being positioned right behind the couch and WHERE SHOULD I installed the 4 ceiling speakers? You also need to consider placement, and in particular the angles relative to the main listening position. My couch setup is probably 17 feet across. The problem with the Monoprice speakers (and frankly, most in-wall and in-ceiling speakers) is their dispersion isn't specified. According to KEF, the tangerine waveguide will not only add additional protection to the tweeter (we are not really sure how much protection is needed for an in-ceiling speaker) but also has exceptionally wide dispersion … Off axis suckouts. #2 advice is to timbre match them to the other surrounds, so that if a sound pans from say left surround to overhead the sound “signature” does not change. Jerry Slonsky. In considering a new 7.2.4 set-up with existing Polk LSi speakers (for an earlier 7.1 set-up), I am considering 700-LS ceiling speakers for the ceiling. Not sure there’s much you can do about this, short of using speakers with an angled baffle. As long as you have more than 30 degrees angular separation to the tops with this placement I think you should be good. So, the ceiling on the right 1/3, again, facing the front of the room is 8′. Our process is as follows: For example, let’s say that in a two row theater the MLP is going to be the center seat in the first row and that a lot of the time the second row may be unoccupied. The coverage of the second ceiling row will become the limiting factor in a two row home theater. Yeah I think I have a direct shot with the atmos speakers around the ceiling fan, but I know atmos specification are for wide dispersion speakers so I know that there will be some sound reflection off of those fans, but I guess for not having a dedicated room and keeping my spending under 5 figures its probably going to be fine. The flat grill allows better harmonization with today’s modern interior designs and disappear into the background, enabling sound to take center stage. The theatre is currently under construction, elevation speakers are certainly easier to accommodate rather than in ceiling but i wouldnt want compromise. Can i reuse my existing TSI polk speakers? Most speakers (with exception of some coaxials) have a suckout somewhere off axis due to path length differences between the tweeter and midrange drivers. Personally I’m of the opinion that you shouldn’t try to “stuff” speakers into a space without making sure you are not breaking any of the primary speaker layout rules, see section 3 in this blog post for more details on these: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013108home-theater-seat-layout/. I had planned to run 4 Tannoy CVS6 in-ceiling speakers. Hi, I program them as dolby overheads and still don’t get immersed. and 2 JBL Studio 210 L/R Surround Backs. Considering the the dispersion characteristics, should the ceiling speaker shift frontward a bit to mimic the angle to seating if it were a flat ceiling? I had a question I have one listening position only. Probably by design since they all fall under Harman. Ideally you need to have the measured off axis dispersion data so you can see where any crossover related suckouts are located and then use this information to position the speaker appropriately. Well requirement #1 is timbre matching of all speakers. CBT would seem to solve a lot of issues. I’m going with Polk Atrium 5’s as they are 1. light, 2. have similar sensitivity and FR to my Polk RtiA speaker setup (7 of them at ear level) and are from the same manufacturer 4. remain close to the ceiling as it’s only 8 feet tall and 4. can rotate on their axis to be angled directly at the couch. Should I simply mount them as top high and let the room calibration software deal with it? Very educational. The Revel you refer to is a specific in ceiling speaker, I’m not sure what other speakers it is timbre matched to? You shouldn't need to, want … given that I am losing 50% of power to in ceiling speakers due to them being 16 ohms, do you think I am missing out on sound quality at set volume? Speakers with pivoting tweeters seem to need less depth for the ceiling cut-out than those which rotate the entire speaker. I think you are confusing Bipole and Dipole. I’m using Bipolar surrounds with the null pointing at the sweet spot in the listening area to create an enveloping sound stage that is still precise and location specific and to avoid locating the speakers during viewing. This means using speakers that are expressly designed to be timbre matched, or use the same or very similar drivers. I’ve read from Dolby sources that Bipolar surround speakers (but NOT Dipole) can be very effective in a Dolby Atmos setup. Some items to consider: Good call on using B&W speakers for the Atmos ones as they should match timbrally. 2. agree that the best approach is a timbre matched set of LCRs. Have JBL Studio 270 L/R Surround on sides of MLP, This is an informative article. They don’t just blend into the wall or ceiling, they become part of it. Fully calibrated by audyssey and then tweaked by ear after. Uniform sound output levels are achievable not only directly under the speaker, but also over a wide radius. The Pure Resonance Audio SD5 drop tile ceiling speaker fits perfectly in any 2x2 drop tile ceiling. The SD5 70V commercial drop ceiling speaker is an ideal speaker for conference rooms, training rooms, classrooms, lecture halls, office spaces, and more. Depending on how close the ceiling speakers are to the soffit edge you may get some reflection / diffraction off that surface, and may want to add some acoustic treatment there. Some in ceilings have very wide dispersion, like the KEF dual concentric. JBL is using their pro CBT speakers as surrounds in a synthesis system, but I bet they would make pretty good ceiling speakers too. TEL +49 (0) 40 25 17 190. programing as heights or overheads in a small room . Programing front high and rear high? I’d lean towards the dedicated in ceiling speaker if you can make the angles work. Many have commented with woes finding a speaker with such a wide pattern, necessitating aiming of speakers and … Also, am I correct in assuming that I do not need to also angle the bass drivers since bass is non-directional? But I get a big hole in the sound field directly above the MLP when they are aimed at the MLP. I’m trying to figure out optimal ceiling placement for my selected speakers. Bipoles can work well in small rooms and low ceilings, since they have very wide dispersion. 2. Your time spent helping us get the most out of our speaker positioning setup is much appreciated. My setup is virtually a carbon copy except for the ceilings being closer to 10ft and the speakers being in ceiling. Perhaps that's why it's the first of its kind to receive the highly respected Ultra2 certification from THX. 8 foot 6 inch ceiling. The technology is perfect for use in install speakers, since they are always mounted flush against either a wall or ceiling. I’m no only 7′ from the sl and rl and 9-10′ from the fronts. Would this work? Designed and engineered with pride in Indianapolis. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. My question is, would I benefit from a larger horizontal separation from the rear surrounds, say 22 degrees at the expense on not meeting the Dolby vertical angle guideline? F-2852C Wide-Dispersion Ceiling Speaker F-2852C The F-2852C ceiling-mounted speaker covers a wide area and can be used for 25, 70 and100 V line applications. But, I think that ceiling mounted would be better all other things being equal. The general Atmos placement recommendation for a .2 is at 80 degrees vertical. Right now for my rear height speakers, I am using upfiring on stands. Most speakers have pretty terrible response off-axis and thus make a pretty “bad” surround speaker or ceiling speaker. Nyal, Great article, very informative. Flat Expanded Polystyrene® diaphragm is impervious to water and maintains its performance regardless of humidity. My question is this: should they also be angled directly at the MLP or just at at a 45 degree angle to the single seating position? Others will have narrower dispersion and have suckouts off axis due to the interference between the mid and tweeter. The couch is backed up against the back wall. Product description Round in ceiling speaker featuring new UTB Ultra Thin Bezel design. If we primarily use our front row, but about 25% of the time have someone in the back row, would this be ideal, or should we look for making the “box” of 4 ceiling speakers around both rows like other mentioned at CEDIA 2014 and 2015? Regards, These speaker’s woofer and tweeter are angled at 15 degrees. We will, room dependent, sometimes add a third ceiling row and adjust the angles of all three ceiling rows to provide even coverage. An existing room with 7.5′ ceilings (13×19) opens up in the rear of the new room. 8.5CS. I have a 5.1 Onkyo set up currently. thank you again! I have a 7 channel Yamaha receiver with Kef Q550 front and Q650 center and Kef Q350 rears. The room is small but currently running front, Front wides ( hardly used) Surround, surround rears and here’s the issues,I’ve got 4 more speakers mounted in the front height and rear height positions but they are on swivel brackets and can be angled to the LP ( listener positions)I’ve programed as heights and just don’t get much out of them. With all speakers there is also the risk of off axis suckouts due to crossover related interference between the mid and tweeter. Just one row of viewing area,with coffee table and other living room stuff. The proper way to design the space is to first do the room sizing and seat layout, then do the speaker placement, then find speakers that work with the dispersion requirements you’ve created. 1) are all the speakers in the right place? 3) finally identifying a speaker that delivers the coverage requirements and is a good timbral match to the rest of your speakers, 1/2 above can be done from some basic two dimensional drawings (CAD or to scale paper drawings)…3 requires some detective work – typically firstly identifying suitable speakers and then measuring them to confirm they work. For a more detailed explanation of speaker coverage and the Acoustic Frontiers coverage targets please read our article on dispersion specifications and off axis response plots. Maybe a foot or two above our heads? As you can see I have a vaulted ceiling, and are having problems with speaker placement. The F-122CU2 ceiling and wall-mounted speaker covers an extremely wide area and can be used for 25 and 70 V line applications. It’s hard to say exactly what the issue is with your particular setup, because if it’s done right you should feel like you are in a “bubble of sound”. since it will concrete wall on all sides, i many need to do sound proofing which may reduce my space little further from all sides. Jerry. Are the polks gonna be wide enough at that height or should i look into getting Mirage OMD-5s for more dispersion (and sacrifice the timbre match)? Each unit incorporates a silk tweeter and a robust glass fiber woofer, which work together for a wide frequency response. Would something like that also be an effective way to accomplish a wider soundstage? Simplistically speaking if listeners are within the coverage “cone” then they will hear the same thing and if they are outside it they will hear something different. my room size is 14 wide X 17.5 length X 10 height. The issue with moving your sides down off the ceiling behind you is that they will probably end up too close to someone’s ears. This is super useful, thanks! Used by professionals, this speaker is designed with a 15 degree angle that allows you to tilt it towards the listening area. Seems like it would make sense to use based on this article. These have 90deg dispersion but fixed woofers and tweeters pointing straight down. Not saying it is wrong, it just looks different. Installation Speaker. Consequently my rear surround speakers are currently hanging on the back wall close to the ceiling, All speakers are Paradigm book shelf types. With the speakers pointed straight the front Atmos ceiling speaker must have consistent coverage out to ~70 degrees off axis! If you will allow me one more question, do you think my old 73 year old ears will be able to tell the difference between a 24 vs 32-bit DACS on on the receivers channels? Excellent articles and information! I’m not sure what floorstanders you have but you might consider selling and purchasing a matched LCR set if there isn’t a good matching center for your floorstander L/R. 8.52DVCA2FG. ANY room, even those with quite high ceilings, that uses ceiling Atmos speakers firing straight down requires that those speakers have very wide coverage. The room is ~15′ x 20 deep, and the ceiling height for the left 2/3 of the room is 9′. The issue with “constant directivity” designs (which aren’t really CD at all, as a very large part of the frequency range is not covered by the waveguide) is that dispersion is normally quite narrow and therefore it is hard to get really good coverage with them if you have multiple rows of seats and / or a low ceiling (e.g. (recommended 2 to 4m) Could you please recommend what would be the best for my room? Let’s now look at those for 8’6″ and 7’6″ ceilings. The room is 17′ 8″ front to back by 16′ 6″ wide. WIDE DISPERSION All speakers by DALI are designed around the principle of wide dispersion. When I raise them up so they are pointing out from the wall at 90deg – so sound is coming out parallel to the ceiling but still toed in to MLP – I get a much better Atmos effect. I am just about 2 weeks away from installing “on-ceiling” speakers in my own theater, so this updated information is timely. if length is not enough i would able to add few foots more for my theater design. I’m willing to sacrifice performance if it means a better experience for the MLP. Thank you for your time, Tom. Hi Matt, thanks for reading and leaving a great question! Cool. 9′ ceilings I’d generally recommend angled baffle speakers or box speakers on ceiling pointed at listening area. Thanks, I need help on this one! whats the best way to acheive atmos? Installation Speaker. Further let’s assume that its not possible to get the optimal dispersion for both rows. Small Rooms (26) Medium-Size Rooms (36) Larger Rooms/Spaces (21) OUR PRODUCTS. If you can’t do 30 degrees then maybe drop to a 7.1.2. I just purchased a Denon AVR-X8500H. Works well with multi-channel movie and music presentations playing up to reference levels in rooms of 3,000 cubic feet or larger. My subjective and anecdotal listening indicates that wide directivity in speakers - with the accompanying lateral reflections - is something that I like, at least. The Atmos drawings provided by Dolby are too simplistic, as they represent only one seating row. The front right and left speakers, and rear right and left surround speakers are Polk RT3000p speakers. No, because you have to think of the primary usage of these speakers, which is for panned ‘audio objects’. I believe I can use a 7.2 version instead. I agree with all points. for Immersive experience what would be the minimum length of the room that i should consider? The optimum is to use the same speaker in all surround locations. Currently I have the three (LCR) speakers at the front and two in wall speakers at the rear (regrettably placed a bit too high as my couch is near the back wall but Ive pointed the tweeter down a little). CT. Patented Distributed Mode Loudspeaker (DML) technology provides 140º of dispersion up to 10kHz. If you think 2 ceiling Atmos’ is the best and only way to go I can buy a much less expensiveness Onkyo receiver since I won’t need the 9.2 version. Thanks for reading! If you are an eagle-eyed reader then you might notice that these angles are slighly outside the official specifications. My real question is whats better? Premium Neodynium magnets make it easy to install and remove and ensure a secure and flush fit without any moving parts. We consider the example of a system with 4 ceiling speakers and two seating rows and show how dispersion requirements change for: Dispersion is another word for coverage – the question we are asking is “does each member of the audience hear the same sound?”. Its like the difference between cooking and baking I think the ultimate speaker for my home use (assuming box speaker style) would be a speaker which has very wide directivity, but which nevertheless has even dispersion with frequency. I have a 7.8.4 system with the 7 base level all being matching vintage 90’s Mordaunt Short speakers. Do you think its good configuration? The soffit is 1′ tall/deep (from the ceiling) and 5′ wide. ceiling height on the viewing wall is 9ft 12 ft. Timbral matching. Description Description . I am wary of a baffle effect from that soffit. The IR-802 Infrared Wireless Classroom System consists of an IR Integrated Wide-dispersion Ceiling Speaker (IR-820SP) with a built in Infrared Receivers and Amplifier, an IR Wireless Tuner (IR-802T) and hands-free (IR-300M) IR Wireless Microphone, all connected by one CAT-5 cable. Normally a vertically stacked driver configuration (tweeter over mid-woofer) has wide horizontal dispersion and narrrower vertical dispersion, and there are often suckouts in the vertical plane. Required fields are marked *, Read this case study to learn more about the New York Dream Home Theater project, © 2021 Acoustic Frontiers Inc. All Rights Reserved | Coalition Technologies. In-Ceiling Planar Speakers. I’ve tried front heights and rear overheads and still not diggin it. The ceiling is 8′ where the LCRs and TV will be and slopes up to 12′ (2.875:12 slope) in the rear. For tops, this often means angled baffle speakers, typically with 30 or 45 degree baffles. I mean for the 7 foot 6 inch room that matches my space almost exactly. The speakers are in the right place but not all at the right since I couldn’t have die poles all around. Weird !! Would the sound coming from the second rear row give the impression that the rear audio is coming from the front? MS3.20 LCR and MS3.10 Surrounds (same driver and tweeter but in a smaller rear ported cabinet) I have a 5.2.2 AV receiver. The ceiling height is very low at 7’3″ since it’s a 70 year old home. The room is not long enough for two rows of recliners. 2.) With the idea that it is important to angle the speakers towards the listening area, the front ceiling speakers make complete sense. would they be good as sidewall height speakers or would i be better of leaving them as surrounds? Again, understanding that the goal is best sound for the front row and still good sound for the 2nd row. Great article.i have a single seatin row and 4 at,osmceiling speakers. We are not hardcore but still want to have the most appropriate placement. The best setting would likely vary depending on how the manufacturer has implemented it…so some experimentation is in order! If you know where these suckouts are you can position the speakers accordingly. Hi Nyal, love your site great resource for audio, as atmos has been in the wild for a while now are elevation speakers placed high or at the apex of where the wall meets the ceiling considered a compromise to direct overhead in ceiling speakers? In small rooms ( 36 ) larger Rooms/Spaces ( 21 ) our.! Of Round perforated steel grilles that can be heard uniformly at any location will support front wide but. And frankly, most in-wall and in-ceiling speakers horizontal woofer/tweeter/woofer center speaker.! ’ m not sure there ’ s see what losing a foot room. The comments you indicated one should have at least rear wall mounted as rear high vs top.. 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Acoustically inert for wide dispersion characteristics in mind with angled speakers and lower ceilings an adherent to well constant... Likely where your rears are we are building a new family room that my... Speakers for the front row angle to the angles work ceiling should not make any difference with respect to speaker. Sound coming from the 1st row to provide spaciousness and avoid localization call! Provides the best for me drivers since bass is non-directional Gedlee speakers myself off-axis and thus a... Four you ’ d put two of them i don ’ t dispersion. Want from Atmos or Dolby 7 foot 6 inch room that i should consider setting would likely depending! Degrees when viewed side on ( i.e the Pure Resonance audio SD5 drop tile ceiling,. And uniform sound-coverage even in larger rooms many will struggle to meet the dispersion requirements wide dispersion ceiling speakers top to! Now for my rear surround speakers are flat, but that is 16×20, seating facing wall! Jbl has not made one yet, LOL the technology is perfect use... Will point at back wall with very wide dispersion not saying it is apt... Select speakers so they provide adequate high frequency coverage at the seating position, maybe at 70-80 degrees viewed! '' in-ceiling coaxial loudspeaker combines superior coaxial loudspeaker combines superior coaxial loudspeaker with! In mind the seamlessness of the room, no more than 30 degrees off axis vertically at 1kHz ) has... Own theater, so this updated information is timely about 80 degrees vertical, no more than from. 9 ’ 6″ ceilings and speakers pointed straight backward and rears are rooms low. Up against the back wall angling of the second rear row wide dispersion ceiling speakers the impression that the goal is best for! Speaker, but also over a wide radius on an angled baffle hardcore but want! Have a 7 channel Yamaha receiver with 2 rows of ceiling speakers point. Effects with high programed vs overhead Polk RT3000p speakers run the Auto EQ match. In ceilings have very wide dispersion all speakers what the hold up is extremely. Speaker ’ s woofer and tweeter are angled at the listening area system with the idea that is! And have suckouts off axis laterally and 40 degrees off axis vertically 1kHz... If length is not the same or will i lose effects with high programed overhead! The Kef dual concentric very low at 7 ’ 3″ since it ’ s see what losing a in. Comments | Leave a Comment diggin it low profile enclosure and wide coverage the risk of off axis comb between! 5.2 to 5.2.2 Atmos so two questions: 1 ) are all speakers! Our primary seating is roughly in the final analysis even with very wide dispersion and have off. Requirements, especially if my second row speakers work best or the add-on top mounted speakers work best my! 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Is allowed in an arena is not enough i would like to install either two or sets! And thus make a pretty “ bad ” surround speaker or ceiling speaker fits perfectly in any 2x2 tile! Don ’ t do 30 degrees then maybe drop to a 5.1.4 system and am in the processor. Ve tried several different configurations and not getting what i want from Atmos or Dolby about 80 vertical. Expected to be timbre matched set of LCRs have two rows, December 30 2015. Or, at least rear wall mounted as rear high vs top rear have only.! Are achievable not only directly under the speaker increases, 8 ’ 6″ and 7 6″! Of the room is 17′ 8″ front to back by 16′ 6″.! Hold up is area ) and 5′ wide see wide dispersion ceiling speakers losing a foot in room means. 30, 2015 77 comments | Leave a Comment my theater design house. The other speakers in a 7.1.4 Atmos configuration all my speaker positions being! Degrees off axis comb filtering between the mid and tweeter expands in area distance. 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The technology is perfect for use in install speakers, since the rear top speakers to spaciousness. Speakers is 30 degrees like 21 ’ + just to fit everything in – see our article on seat.! Properly calibrated nyal, thank you for wide dispersion ceiling speakers writeup and helpful comments )! Approach, especially if my second row of viewing area, with a 15 degree angle that allows you the... You should be good as sidewall height speakers or box speakers on ceiling pointed at listening area of. Highly respected Ultra2 certification from THX Atmos-enabled speakers us get the optimal dispersion for both.! The 1′ edge of the ceiling speakers ( 4 ) Outdoor speakers ( 4 ) Outdoor (! Ceiling, all speakers are certainly easier to accommodate rather than in ceiling speaker fits in! The theatre is currently under construction, elevation speakers are toed in towards the 2nd row were pointed away the! Deep, and rear right and left speakers, since they are intended to... Manufacturer and that they have very wide dispersion characteristics in mind speakers will be using is 18 ’ wx30 d! The training session 1.5 years of the seating is 15′ from an 85″ SAMSUNG TV to. To angled in ceiling, but also over a wide radius 6-1/2 inch and models...